Sunday, January 12, 2014

The Search For The Moderate Muslim

This may be one of the most difficult issues to deal with for those of us who are working to defeat the third jihad: What about the moderate Muslims? Is there such a thing? What does "moderate" mean?

I think what most of us hope it means is "a Muslim that openly and definitely repudiates the violent, intolerant, supremacist passages in the Koran."

But the more I read about mainstream "moderate" Muslim organizations in America, the more I realize that what I hope "moderate" means and what those "moderate Muslims" mean by the term are entirely different. I am getting the feeling that the term "moderate Muslim" is not only pointless, but misleading — perhaps even deliberately misleading.

We should stop using the term. We should come up with a name for Muslims who straightforwardly reject the violent, intolerant passages in the Koran and openly reject the supremacist ideology strewn throughout Islamic teachings.

In my opinion, someone who does that is not really a Muslim, but maybe they still enjoy praying five times a day and fasting during Ramadan, so they might prefer to call themselves Muslims. Maybe they don't want to be rejected by their community and family. Who am I to tell someone what they call themselves?

On the other hand, we non-Muslims need a term that draws a distinction between the two types of Muslims. One type is dangerous to non-Muslims and one is not. A Muslim may not care about this distinction, but it's pretty important to us non-Muslims.

I heard Walid Phares use the term "democracy-seeking Muslims" and I thought that was pretty good, but it doesn't go far enough. Until a Muslim acknowledges that there are, in fact, calls to violence and intolerance against non-Muslims in their central holy book, and then repudiates those specific Koranic passages, I don't feel that Muslim can be trusted.

I know that would sound terrible to someone who doesn't know anything about Islam. But really, this is a pretty straightforward matter. If you call yourself a Muslim, almost everybody on earth is assuming you think the Koran contains the core teachings you will follow. For us non-Muslims who have read the book, that's a scary thought. For those of you who haven't read it yet, these passages will give you an idea: What the Koran Says About Non-Muslims.

So a firm repudiation of those passages would at least acknowledge that the Muslim knows those passages exist and acknowledges that they should be rejected. I know it is entirely possible someone saying so could be lying, but it would at least be a start.

What should we call Muslims who repudiate intolerant and supremacist Islamic teachings? "Moderate" isn't good enough. How about "Scrubbed Muslims?" "Jihad-rejecting Muslims?" "Freed Muslims?" "Friendly Muslims?" "Non-jihadi Muslims?" "Pluralist Muslims?"

I like "Jihad-rejecting Muslims," or JRMs. As far as non-Muslims are concerned, JRMs are the only ones we should engage in "interfaith dialogs" and the only ones allowed to provide counsel for the FBI and the only ones translating documents for security services.

JRMs are the only Muslims who should be allowed to preach in mosques in free countries or teach in madrassas. This is just simple, reasonable self-preservation. A person who calls himself a Muslim but does not openly reject the killing of non-Muslims for being non-Muslims, and who does not reject the overthrow of legitimate democracies, and who does not reject Shari'a law, should not be allowed into those positions. That should be a no-brainer for any person who cares about their government's survival.

So far there aren't many Muslims who are clearly JRMs. The term "moderate Muslims" lets them off the hook — they don't have to risk rejection by their families or perhaps even risk their lives openly repudiating specific Koranic passages, and non-Muslims are left with no way to tell who is a friend and who is a foe.

The term "moderate Muslim" also allows Muslims to remain "undeclared." They don't have to decide whose side they are on. They can secretly harbor a wish that some day their democratic country will be ruled by Shari'a, that some day Islam will reign supreme over the whole world, and that some day all kafirs will pay the jizya (tax on non-Muslims), and yet they may look in every way like a good citizen, trusted by non-Muslims, allowed into influential positions, etc. But if circumstances permitted, they would work toward their Islamic supremacist fantasy. They can function like a kind of sleeper cell in our midst.

By making our own term and defining it, we can make a clear distinction for ourselves and for Muslims, between who is an enemy and who is a friend.

I don't know if simply rejecting jihad would be even be enough, however. One of the most fundamental principles of Islam is that loyalty to Islam comes before loyalty to anything else, including one's country or even one's family. Wouldn't that be a potential problem if the person is working for the government? But maybe our definition of a JRM could include a repudiation of this Islamic hierarchy of loyalties as well.

Another problem is that it says in the Koran 91 times that a Muslim should use Mohammad as an example to emulate. And Mohammad ordered the torture of people, personally participated in beheading 600 people in one night, ordered and led raids on caravans, captured, owned and had sex with slaves, and spent the last ten years of his life conquering and subjugating people. So the definition of a JRM would also have to include a bold rejection of the idea that Mohammad is someone who should be imitated.

Since the stakes are so high for us non-Muslims (being the target of the violence), and since it is easy enough to find out what it actually says in the Koran (that it's a Muslim's duty to fight against the unbelievers until no god is worshiped in the world but Allah), we would be foolish to cavalierly grant our trust to Muslims until they prove themselves trustworthy.

The onus, the burden of proof, is not on non-Muslims.

Muslims will have to prove themselves trustworthy. This whole thing is difficult for all of us, but this distinction must be made. It's a sane response for non-Muslims to make to this sticky situation.

If any Muslim thinks this is offensive or intolerable or somehow outrageous, I think we have discovered someone who is trying to pretend those dangerous passages are not in their holy book, and that sounds like someone we cannot trust.

But if non-Muslims named and defined who we would be willing to trust, and we did it clearly and defiantly, we might find out how many Muslims are on the side of freedom, equality, and pluralism. What do you think?

15 comments:

Citizen Warrior said...

I think the terms "orthodox" and "heterodox" are the better terms:

http://www.inquiryintoislam.com/2010/07/orthodox-versus-heterodox-muslims.html

Anonymous said...

utterly stupid and uneducated article

Charles Martel said...

Here is what I heard about this issue from three different people.

PM Erdogan: There is no moderate Islam or radical Islam. There is only Islam. In other words, all believers believe the same and follow in the same path.

Muslim whose name I don't remember: all Muslims believe the same and have the same goals and expectations. Some pursue violent jihad, while the great majority watch peacefully the advancement of Islam achieved by the radical ones.

Expert on Islam/Jihad, whose name I don't remember either: all pious Muslims believe the same. The radical ones believe it's happening now, the great majority believe it will happen some time in the distant future, but when they see Obama bow to the King of Saudi Arabia, Hillary Clinton wearing hijabs, etc. a great number of peaceful Muslims become confused ...

Nicoenarg, is this somewhat accurate? Sorry about the missing info about the authors, but at this time at night my memory is worse than usual ...

Citizen Warrior said...

I think there are two issues here. The first is the one you have addressed, Nicoenarg and Charles Martel: The facts from the point of view of a believing Muslim educated in Islamic doctrine.

The other issue is how we who know about Islamic doctrine talk to those non-Muslims who are, as yet, unacquainted with Islam. As you have discovered, this distinction needs to be made or you will not be listened to. So the question is, then, how can you retain your accuracy and truthfulness while still being able to reach people? I have tried orthodox and heterodox and it seems to work the best. It is accurate, because while ISLAM is what it is, there are, of course, those who know about it and believe in it and those who don't know much about their own religion and those who know about it and don't believe in it. Your listener knows at least this much, even if they may be unaware that the percentage of believers is higher than they would hope.

When you are talking to your fellow non-Muslims, Charles and Nicoenarg, do you make this distinction in your language? And what is your conversion rate? In other words, how effective are you at recruiting people to our side?

Ciccio said...

There are many Muslims who in private conversation will admit that jihad is crazy as are those practicing it but will not say so in public because any dissent is seen as un-Islamic. To question any of the doctrines labels them apostate. Islam, like communism or Nazism is structured that the least dissent pits you against the entire structure. You can either go along or be an outcast.

Epaminondas said...

the word you are looking for is:


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Anonymous said...

Epa,

LOL Exactly.

Nicoenarg

Anonymous said...

Charles Martel,

1) Yes it is accurate. Anyone insinuating that there exists a moderate Islam is, quite frankly, uneducated on Islam. In that respect I think CW did a fine job in this article since to get to his JRM, you'd have to reject Islam (no two ways about it, you can't have a Muslim praying 5 times a day and expect him to be one who rejects Islam's core principles like Jihad).

2) Partly true. The "peaceful" ones aren't just sitting on the sidelines. They are funding Jihad and advancement of Islam through other means with their Zakat payments.

3) Yup. Pious or not (those terms have different meanings in Islam compared to what they are among Christians), Sunni Muslims feel pride when they see Obummer bowing to Abdullah. Shiites feel pride when Obummer opens his cheeks wide for the Iranians to have their nuke program. Everywhere you turn, Muslims are seeing "victories".

I will say this though, there are Muslims who, for example, want to further their career. They want their children to have a good education, or for them to be rich etc. But like I've said before, Muslims are ticking time bombs (because of their culture and religion) and there's no telling when they might go off. Most are duds. But the real problem is you can never tell which one is not.

Nicoenarg

Anonymous said...

Citizen Warrior,

I used to live in the Muslim world so I didn't really keep a journal on who I talked to and what percentage of them listened to me and what percentage didn't. Get caught with that journal and get my head chopped off, no thanks.

However, I did talk to quite a few people. Most don't care and can't be made to care. You can present your logic in any twisted and sugar coated way you like, most don't care and that's the way it will be.

As for whether I would make a distinction between "those who believe" ... and "those who call themselves Muslims but don't believe in most of their religion". No not really, I haven't come across any such person.

Does that mean none exist? No. It just means that the pull of Islam is so strong that even if some existed, you would never know. The only kind I have come across are, like Epa put it, the apostates. And they DO NOT LIKE being called Muslims.

And by the way, the fact that not all Muslims know about Islam is true. However, Muslims are known to make up shit as long as it makes their religion sound good. Its a common cultural thing. In the West they came up with "Islam gave women equal rights before anyone else". In Muslim countries they repeat shit like "We have shame and keep our women covered, women in the West are all whores..." etc. It doesn't matter whether they are scholarly qualified in Islam or not. In the end, they will side with their brethren. And join them when they see the tide turning in Islam's favor.

I don't have any illusions about "ONE DAY when these Muslims who don't care much about their religion can be our allies". That's the same to me as saying, "ONE DAY moderate Nazis will cross the line and hopefully stop killing Jews." Its delusional, IMHO, and nothing else.

... to be continued

Nicoenarg

Anonymous said...

...continued

Now about when I talk to or used to talk to non Muslims about Islam and Muslims...

No I would never make that distinction since I didn't talk about Muslims. I talk about Islam. Its pointless and worthless to talk about the kinds of Muslims. Its much more productive, and fun, to talk about the crap that Islam is.

Do I or did I do that to "recruit" people. No effing way. I don't want some wishy washy pussy fighting by my side. I just do it to gauge who the person is that I'm talking to. Liberals, even Christian liberals, for example reveal their true nature very quickly. Start talking about Christian history like the inquisition and see them puff up and lecture the world around them about how horrible it was, oh how horrible!

Then say, Islam breeds terrorism and present verses and Mohammed's history to support that fact and you see them shrink down to nothing, avoiding eye contact. Looking over their shoulder, making sure no one's listening. Its a fun exercise for me, nothing else. Like I said, wouldn't want pussies on my side. Not even well meaning, well informed pussies.

To be continued...

Nicoenarg

Anonymous said...

...continued

There has been only one thing that has worked for me in my conversations. And that is humiliating Islam, speaking louder than the Muslim idiots and not giving two shits about Muslim sensibilities. Humiliating Islam, mind you, not humiliating people. Messed up concept but works for Muslims perfectly.

I'll give you one example. I used to be a flight attendant and used to fly with people from all over the world. Muslims, non Muslims (mostly liberal idiots...I mean this is flight attendants we are talking about).

One day, this poor non Muslim girl didn't know what she was getting herself into. There was this Egyptian Muslim guy preaching Islam's "greatness" to her. I was listening in, of course, since this was in the back galley (the kitchen area at the back of the plane) and all of the crew was there (flight attendants, not flight crew :-P).

At one point during the conversation the girl says, "If Islam is so great why did Mohammed have sex with a six year old." I gotta be honest, I looked up at both of them with a huge smile on my face. I wouldn't even have brought Mohammed's pedophilia up so quickly in this conversation. Looked around at the rest of the crew who looked like someone had just told them that there was a bomb on the plane.

The Muslim guy of course started yelling at the girl. I stayed quiet for a while to see if the girl was going to reply. She didn't. The guy's screaming threw her off a bit. Then the guy started raising his arms and flailing them about like the Muslim idiot he was. Typical behavior though. Using body language to threaten others.

At this point, fearing the idiot might hit the girl, I said, "Calm the fuck down!" (I don't usually cuss when I speak except for when I think its necessary. Writing is a different matter). He turned to me, his face red, his voice still loud, said to me, "She is lying about prophet Mohammed, I can't let her do that."

I screamed back, making sure he saw the anger in my face, "No one gives a shit about your prophet. Now calm the fuck down and talk to the girl with respect!"

Silence from the Muslim. Everyone else GASPED! They probably thought he was going to kill me. However, being that I actually grew up in this culture, I knew exactly what I was doing. He who yells louder and shows that he is more furious than the opponent wins!

Sure enough, the guy lowered his voice and said, "In Islam we respect all prophets so she should respect Mohammed and not lie about him."

I said, retaining the angry expression, "No one's cares about what you do. You can't demand that everyone respect your prophet since we don't give a shit about him or your religion. What you do is your business. As for lying about Mohammed. You are right, she was inaccurate when she said he had sex with a six year old."

His eyes lit up but I continued and said, "he married Ayesha when she was 6 and had sex with her when she was 9 according to Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim and Sirat Rasul Allah." I said, "If you want to yell and scream, go scream at your own books. Leave the girl alone."

That was it. Silence from the guy. He went and stood in a corner. Then when he went into the cabin, the rest of the crew came to me and were patting me on the back saying, "good job. You put him in his place." etc.

So CW, the moral of the story is, when it comes to dealing with Islam, its the same as dealing with a bully. No one will side with you until they see that you can actually take on the bully. After you beat him and shame him, they'll all pat you on the back. But that doesn't mean you can count on them to have your back from that point onward. They're cheerleaders, they'll cheer on whoever's winning. You just have to make sure you're the one winning.

If you insist on doing it with logic. Go ahead. But you can't win against animals by using logic. No one ever has, and no one ever will.

Nicoenarg

Anonymous said...

Sorry about comment bombing your post but I just wanted to add this for all the readers: DO NOT TRY WHAT I DID! You will get yourself killed or beat up IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING.

Nicoenarg

Pastorius said...

I need to be clear with Citizen Warrior about something here:

Niconarg used to be called "The Avenging Apostate." For reasons of his own, he has changed his name.

Nico mention that he used to live in the Muslim world.

The truth is, NICO USED TO BE A MUSLIM IN THE MUSLIM WORLD.

Nico knows what he is talking about.

That does not mean he is absolutely right about everything and CW is absolutely wrong.

CW is a great writer and he makes a lot of good points, and he does so in a manner which reaches out to a wider world and I admire him for his work, and I am glad he writes here.

Personally, I tend to agree with Nico on issues like this.

There is as little hope of separating the good Muslims from the bad, as there was of separating the good Nazis from the bad Nazis during WWII.

That does not mean there were not decent Germans. But it does mean that until a reigning ideology is THOROUGHLY DEFEATED AND HUMILIATED IN DEFEAT AND DISCREDITED THUSLY, the ideology will not be opposed by a significant enough number to topple the power structure.

One of the primary reasons for this is a knee-jerk sense of patriotism or nationalism, or just simply "We suck, they rule" tribalism, which is built into all human beings.

Citizen Warrior said...

Thank you, Pastorius, for that. You're a fair-minded and classy gentleman.

I agree with you both that if we tried to separate "moderate Muslims" (heterodox) from "radicals" (orthodox), it would be damn near impossible short of using a lie detector machine. So I endorse completely stopping all immigration for all Muslims into the United States or any non-Muslim country until such time as we can definitively tell apart those women seeking freedom FROM Islam and those who still believe in Islam.

Stop Muslim Immigration

Leaders Who Recommend Stopping Muslim Immigration

The other issue is how we speak about it to those non-Muslims we are trying to recruit to our side. I believe it is foolish to write them off. Many of them are truly simply uninformed and could, if handled skillfully, see the truth and become an ally in this fight. I think it's worth doing because whoever is not an ally ends up helping the enemy, unwittingly or not.

Pastorius said...

I agree.

The other day I was talking with a educated friend of mine, and he was telling me why he doesn't agree with my position on Islam.

he went through hundreds of years of the dynastic history of Islam, telling me about this and that division of Islam, and how it happened. But he did not know the word Hadith, and he did not know that the Koran is not in chronological order, nor did he know why it matters that it is not.